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Talk:Rapture Storyline
Please Merge I wrote endings for the article "Story Tree". Please merge the two batches of info. TheTrueBlue 03:50, February 13, 2010 (UTC) Organization of Plot by Level We should organize the plot by each level, but that would require major changes in this page, I will work on this later. -PatPeter 17:48, 30 September 2008 (UTC) Just Re-Wrote Rapture's History The person who wrote the history before me was either intentionally trying to write the wrong information, or was incredibly stupid. They believed that ADAM came from "squids"... I re-wrote the entire thing with correct, and more detailed, information regarding the events that took place before 1960. PoeticMadnesss A Minor Change The plasmid that Sofia uses on Subject Delta to make him shoot himself is, I believe, Hypnotize Big Daddy from the original Bioshock. They have a similar effect, and identical appearance if you noticed. May be more to come, I am editing as I go and have not finished reading yet. 18:03, February 12, 2010 (UTC) Thanks for the corrections. [[User:BlueIsSupreme|'BlueIsSupreme']] 00:12, 10 August 2009 (UTC) Rapture/ Bioshock 2 History of Rapture's section should include the new information we learnt from the events of BS2. *Eleanor kidnapped/ Sofia Lamb arrested and sent to jail. *Delta found the city, captured, turned into a big daddy. *Sofia escaped/ forced Delta to kill himself. *''Rapture's civil war.'' *Girls abducted from the surface. *Little sisters grown unstable and turned into hostile big sisters. *Splicers developed new techniques in attacking and killing big daddies. *Rumblers created. *Brigid Tenenbaum returned to Rapture. *Mark Meltzer found Rapture. *Eleanor resurrected Delta. *Bioshock 2 events started. // Kelzow20 16:57, February 13, 2010 (UTC) Bioshock 2 endings choices I wanna replace the first paragraph of 'Escape From Rapture' with this: There are 4 separate endings, plus 2 different cut scenes during the rise to the surface, depending on whether you harvested or rescued the Little Sisters and whether you chose to spare or kill Grace, Stanley, and Gil Alexander. This brings a total of 8 different sequence of events that can be determined below: Rescue all LS + Spare some NPC = Sofia lives, good ending (Best Ending) Rescue all LS + Kill all NPC = Sofia dies, good ending Harvest some LS + Spare all NPC + (Choice Scene) death = Sofia lives, abandoned good ending Harvest some LS + Kill some NPC + (Choice Scene) death = Sofia dies, abandoned good ending Harvest some LS + Spare all NPC + (Choice Scene) life = Sofia lives, evil ending Harvest some LS + Kill some NPC + (Choice Scene) life = Sofia dies, evil ending Harvest all LS + Spare all NPC = Sofia lives, abandoned evil ending Harvest all LS + Kill some﻿ NPC = Sofia dies, abandoned evil ending (Worst Ending) Just wanted to know if this is verified, also i heard that Grace was the only significant NPC that changes whether lamb lives or dies. [[User:Rean2|'Rean2']] 16:36, February 16, 2010 (UTC) - During my last playthrough, I spared Grace and killed the other two, and Eleanor killed Lamb. I heard there were six endings if you include the Lamb scene, but I wouldn't consider that to be part of the ending seeing as the trophies/achievements for completion are awarded during the scenes on the surface, and those scenes are fully CG-rendered, as opposed to being made with the gameplay engine.Bluevane 10:10, February 19, 2010 (UTC) :Two things: 1st. Killing two (any two) of the three results in killing Sofia. 2nd. The endings should be sorted as: Good, Evil and Sad --accroding to Zack McLendon,'' "the team wanted to give the player both Good and Evil endings with something in between, something SAD."'' so I guess the ending section should be re-edited. // Kelzow20 05:14, February 23, 2010 (UTC) :Actually, not quite. According to the Strategy Guide, the ending is determined by a number of branching things. First of all, Whether you get "good" or "bad" Eleanor (I'm assuming her speech when she puts on the Big Sis suit changes). "Good" Eleanor is when you save ALL the Little sisters. "Bad" is when you harvest ANY ONE Little Sister. Whether Sofia dies depends on the fate of the three choice NPCs and this. With "Good" Eleanor, you need to KILL ALL three NPCs for Lamb to die (but you should still get the good ending - havent tried it), otherwise she'll live. With "Bad" Eleanor, you need to SPARE ALL three NPCs for lamb to live, otherwise she'll die. Then, the 4 different endings (Good, Neutral, Bad, Worse) are as the table above shows (Great job on that, btw) and have NOTHING to do with the choice NPCs (again, haven't fully tested it, but official guides genrally don't lie). LittleMountain 04:18, February 24, 2010 (UTC) ::Yeah, the info on the endings in this article is pretty messed up. It says that the "nuetral ending" is acheived by saving all the Little Sisters but killing all the NPCs, which is untrue. I harvested most and saved some, and killed 2 of the 3 NPCs, and I got that ending. The article also makes it sound like the nuetral ending is inevitable if you play a certain way leading up to the rise to surface, which it wasn't for me and I'm pretty sure it never is. The "nuetral ending" is an option given to you if you play a certain way, but you can still go with the bad ending if you choose to let Eleanor harvest you. I think that section needs an overhaul. Puglous 20:15, March 10, 2010 (UTC) :::Well, to be honest, for some reason there's listings of endings in a lot of articles. Storyline is getting the least attention because more people look at the other pages with a listing. We should really remove those and put all the good information here only. ~''Ṃᶒɠą§ɔîéɳčę' [[User talk:MegaScience|{ '''talk }]]'' 20:42, March 10, 2010 (UTC) Bioshock 2 I bought Bioshock 2, and the plot is missing alot here, shouldn't it also point out that in the end Sinclair dies, and that if a Big Daddy's Little Sister dies the Big Daddy will go in a coma? That's just some of the plot missing, I dont want to list it all really. :You're slightly mistaken, only Delta would go into a coma if his Little Sister died due to the nature of his relationship with Elanor. Tidus mi2 06:44, March 4, 2010 (UTC) ::The Alpha Series would also go into a coma (or go berserk). 00:14, June 7, 2010 (UTC) Hatred Plothole? The article says that Tenenbaum was in the Farmer's Market When she recorded the Audio Diary "Hatred". However, if you listen closely, you can hear a stream and birdsong, implying that she was in Arcadia. Considering that the Diaries are scattered everywhere, I think it's better to presume that the Diary was moved, but I want your opinion on the subject. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk • ) 13:46, 2011 March 5 (UTC). Please remember to sign your posts with ~~~~. :I agree with you. I think that many/most of the diaries in the game were not recorded in the locations where they are found, so it shouldn't be assumed that way. ~'Gardimuer' [[User talk:Gardimuer|{ ʈalk }]] 18:17, March 5, 2011 (UTC) I think we should merge the offending sentance and the next one, but I'll only if it's agreed that the offending sentance is speculation. Dark Swarmlord 20:04, March 5, 2011 (UTC) Population? The article mentions that the population of Rapture peaked at "several thousand" in its heyday. I'm sorry but doesn't that seem like a gross underestimate? 11:41, March 7, 2012 (UTC) :As far as I know, that rough estimate comes from the article about "The Vanishing" from There's Something in the Sea. You are welcome to rephrase the statement if you think it is inaccurate. ~'Gardimuer' [[User talk:Gardimuer|{ ʈalk }]] 23:27, March 7, 2012 (UTC) Gilbert Alexander and the W.Y.K. command. Is Gilbert Alexander under the 'Would you kindly' command by Sophia Lamb? >see >Rapture Storyline >Fontain Futuristics >Line 7 Aquawiki (talk) 14:00, September 13, 2012 (UTC) I only just noticed that, thanks for the pointer. Having played through the game many times I haven't seen any mention of the WYK effect or anything similar pertaining to Gil. I'll check again. Could anyone reading this please check as well? If anything supporting that edit comes up it'll stay, otherwise I'll change it accordingly. To my knowledge, Gil only talks about his future self falling into insanity, not under mind control. --Willbachbakal (talk) 18:48, September 13, 2012 (UTC) : Just asking! Should this be corrected now? There has been nothing mentioned that supports the WYK effect and Gil? Aquawiki (talk) 05:19, October 4, 2012 (UTC) : Sophia Lamb was interested in the idea of the WYK command as a means of creating an obedient Utopian, but she never implemented it on anyone. Gil's madness is brought on by the side effects of his massive ADAM treatment. She was all about giving others the choice to sacrifice themselves for the sake of her goals. : Unownshipper (talk) 01:56, October 5, 2012 (UTC) : Gil was already an adult. Jack could have been conditioned even from before birth (as well as subjected to major manipulation as per his fast growth..... If such things could be done to adults, the Sofia would have likely aimed at applying it to everyone already. Why is it labelled as 'Worst' ending? i'm not trying to be a tool, I just don't think thats an appropriate word choice. If you're playing evil, then surely you'd be proud to have spawned an evil protege. Its almost as if you're saying the player is begin punished for playing the game. Also, with the neutral good ending, it says on the section here that it is implied tbat Eleanor harvested the little sisters to secure their escape...source please? (finally, I saved all the little sisters and only spared Grace, Sofia survived and I got the neutral good ending) ------------------------ "Rapture's population numbered at least one hundred thousand at its peak during the early to mid 1950s, " Speculation ? That number isnt mentioned anywhere (and the book/novel mentions 20000) Cant really go by the views out the windows in the game (they are faulty anyway as you see the same thing out 4 different sides of the same building). The intended impression would be of significant size, but how much of Rapture is made to impress ?? Is built overlarge, a facade ??? (ie- look at Fontaine Futuristics and you see upper 1/2+ of building is for show and cant fit any appreciable interior, many of the rediculously tall building could be the same). I would probably expand the book number of 20000 in the city and add 20000 outside in support communities (cities dont lve in a vaccuum and have to get all their supplies from somewhere - and they dont com efrom city streets). BioShock's Ending in the Storyline So it was mentioned that the section referencing both possible endings of BioShock should be removed from the introduction of BioShock 2. Here is the opening line in it's complete form: Whether Jack harvested the Little Sisters and stole the nuclear warhead, or saved them and went back to the surface to live with them, his influence became less direct in Rapture, and Tenenbaum soon left with most of the remaining Little Sisters. And here's the revised line: Jack's influence became less direct in Rapture, and Tenenbaum soon left with most of the remaining Little Sisters. The idea behind this change comes from the recent interview with Ken Levine. Here's the part where he specifically mentions the multiple endings: "So, the idea for multiple endings in the original Bioshock actually came fairly late on at the request of the publisher. They did not at all push things creatively on us, but the multiple endings were where we compromised. I was not too keen on that idea. My concern was that I did not know how to write multiple endings, and to some degree the game to me was about the meaninglessness of the choice. It was strange to me that you could kill some Little Sisters and still get the good ending. Originally, I was going to have just one ambiguous ending. If I had to choose one, I definitely prefer the happy ending, because that was a beautiful sequence – and in Burial at Sea, Elizabeth (SPOILERS) dies to set that up. Going into Infinite, there was no question that there would only be one ending." All that Levine states is that, based on aesthetics and the fact that it helps connect Burial at Sea (DLC) to the BioShock narrative he prefers the Good Ending. He asserts that it makes for a better gameplay experience, but stops short of calling it canon. I do like how he makes it clear that the publishing company wasn't forcing things on him and his staff left and right, and that the endings were an act of compromise between two creative entities. The inclusion of the muliple endings wasn't an act that made or broke BioShock for him, just something he wouldn't have considered on his own. So here's Elizabeth's line from BAS: "I can see all the doors, and what's behind all the doors. And behind one of them… incredibly, I see him." We could consider the possible significance of the qualifier "behind one of them." IE, is she saying that behind one door (AKA, the universe Liz is currently in) she sees Jack, the rescuer of Little Sisters and deliverer or Sally, while behind all others she sees him as the Harvester and new despot of Rapture? Maybe, maybe not. It's vague enough to be open to interpretation. Let's save that query for another section. For the moment, can we just agree that the original line is fine the way it was? I point to the following reasons why the line should stay. 1. BioShock 2 is almost completely unconnected to Burial at Sea. Nothing major between the two games' plots greatly impacts either game. IE, Elizabeth's actions don't impact Subject Delta, Sofia Lamb, and Eleanor's storyline. 2. The Gossiping Splicers of Atlantic Express serve as a direct reference to both possible endings being valid. In the chronologically successive games (Bio2, Minerva, etc) either action taken by Jack is possible, and only BAS is impacted by the Good Ending. 3. I prefer that a mention of either ending be made here on the Storyline. This way, it doesn't seem like we at the BioShock Wiki are imparting our own bias and making it seem like certain players made "the wrong choice" by earning the Sad or Evil endings. I hope that this explains my reasoning clearly and await a response. My apologies for the length. Unownshipper (talk) 20:40, March 23, 2015 (UTC) :An even more neutral way to put it would not to mention either ending at all. Only that Jack's influence on Rapture faded. And a note about seeing Jack behind "one" door? Elizabeth uses the exact same language to describe Comstock in BSI: "I can see all the doors, and what's behind all the doors, and behind one of them, I see him." and we know that Comstock existed in a million million worlds. The "behind one door" description actually means much more than a single door. sm --Solarmech (talk) 21:33, March 23, 2015 (UTC) ::I don't feel it's an instance of neutrality. This whole point was brought up because a user saw the interview and took it to mean that their was only one ending. Including the reference to both is objective and shows that the site isn't giving preferential treatment to the Happy ending just because Ken Levine would choose it if he played the game. Also, the first line offers a better transition between the two histories. If Jack rescues the girls and leaves Rapture, then his absence makes sense in BioShock 2. If he became the evil overlord that the Bad ending suggests, why would he leave? ::Including the original line doesn't hurt, makes clear that either ending the player chooses is valid, and helps set the stage for the coming-of-Lamb history. ::Unownshipper (talk) 02:42, March 24, 2015 (UTC) ::: Don't you think that showing only the Good ending in BaS is a way of saying that the Good end is the Canon one? And Elizabeth could see ALL the endings, and yet she only see's the Good one. It would be far from the first time that a game has multiple gameplay endings, but only a single one is the canon one. (Hero's of Might and Magic, Half Life 1, Star Wars: Knight of the Old Republic to name a few) I do dislike it that Levine keeps things murky, but that's the way he works. Maybe will get a clearer answer in the BSI novel. sm --Solarmech (talk) 10:30, March 24, 2015 (UTC) :::PS Almost forgot about this. Validating a player's choice is not what the Bioshock games are about. Just the opposite in fact. They show that the player does not have any true agency. None of the choices in BSI meant anything and only exist because Irrational LET the players have a choice. Even in BS1, there is WYK. Jack/the player is going to follow the script. Having one ending (the Good one in this case) being the canon one very much in line with the BS series. sm --Solarmech (talk) 11:20, March 24, 2015 (UTC) :::What 'good' end? Its ALL vague and undefined. Elizabeth sees whatever as the future, but that doesnt make it so. There is NO narration that actually shows what finally happens (except throughout the games we are show wreckage and corpses and crazy people mostly as the only people left). BS1 and BS2 havent happened yet in the DLC. So she sees a dream? ... so what. :::Levine can say whatever he wants, various writers have often invalidated original canon to make a buck. Even what finally resulted in the BaS DLC is totally vague, and being INFINITE-ized becomes too wishywashy (by its own definition) to bother trying to try to decide. :::Just state what the different games had (looked like) as their (possible multiple) endings and dont try to tie it all together as some cohesive system -- because it is NOT. ::: 14:01, March 24, 2015 (UTC) :::*Stop VHS, rewind* :::Let's go back to the first subject: should the BioShock 2 page mention explicitly both ending of BioShock or remain vague. Even though I'd like for that sentence to be the most accurate, the original version sounds a bit too clunky and long imho. So I propose a revision to the revision, as a compromise: "Independently of his own story, Jack's influence over Rapture faded to become mere rumors among the city's survivors, and Tenenbaum soon left for the surface with most of the remaining Little Sisters." Pauolo (talk) 16:44, March 24, 2015 (UTC) :::I think Pauolo's version is the best way to include it on that page. If you play BioShock, it is still your choice which ending you get, and which one you want to believe when you play BioShock 2. Just because Burial at Sea - Episode 2 mentions the good ending doesn't mean the "bad" ending can be considered garbage. —[[User:Mainframe98|'Mainframe98']] talk·''' ' 16:52, March 24, 2015 (UTC) ::::I totally agree with that sentiment about ''BAS. Though I may prefer the parlance of the original, Pauolo's suggestion is a fair compromise. ::::Unownshipper (talk) 13:26, March 25, 2015 (UTC) ::::I would also weaken the 'most part of "Tenenbaum soon left for the surface with most of the remaining Little Sisters" as we dont know really how many there were total fro any ending. ::::"'Tenenbaum had left with the Little Sisters she had managed to save''" (I was going to mention 'and Jack' but depending on what you did it might not be true)'' ::::We do see more than a few Big Sisters (BS2) who were previously Little Sisters who had stayed (with no depenndancy to specific ending of BS1), as well as lots of Little Sisters still prowling the (few) parts of Rapture we saw in BS1, and only see a small number evident in the 'good' BS1 ending . ::::- ::::"Jack's influence over Rapture faded to become mere rumors" --> "Jack's role in Rapture eventually faded to rumors and myths ''" (myths because of those rather significant church murals...) ::::By BS2 Ryan and Atlas themselves had been distorted/mythologized (Lambs demonization...) ::::Consider also - that I (and others) actually saw the 'bad' ending as part of playing BS1, so it is hard to say 'it never happened' - the game itself IS the primary Canon. With mutliple dimensions existing in Infinite being fundamentally part of its canon... and BaS flows from it), it is very puzzling that Levine would declare the one BS1 'good ending' is 'it' (the absolute canon). :::: 10:06, March 26, 2015 (UTC) '' :::::I had a hard time reading you here, with the bold/italic characters and such. /: :::::But seems like as from this morning (Paris time) source editing has become the rainbow road, and that helps a lot. :D :::::Anyway yeah, that part about Tenenbaum could be weakened, and I like your modification on Jack's part. So let's say, "Independently of his own story, Jack's influence over Rapture eventually faded to mere rumors and myths among the city's survivors, while Tenenbaum had left for the surface with the Little Sisters she could save." Sound better imho. Pauolo (talk) 20:33, March 26, 2015 (UTC) ::::::I'm afraid that we're getting to the point where a simple sentence is becoming bogged down and stilted as it passes through committee. That being said, I'd still like to throw my last two cents in. First, the Little Sisters and Big Sisters. It's safe to assume that in the Happy Ending all 19 girls from Tenenbaum's Sanctuary + the ones rescued from Olympus Heights, Apollo Square, and Point Prometheus - any lost in Proving Grounds were taken to the surface; that equals A LOT! But Rapture is a big city, and while many sisters could have been rescued many could still be left over. According to this there are between 7 to 25 Big Sisters. Still, from this number we can safely say that "many" were rescued, if not by Jack then certainly by Tenenbaum because of her diary Return. ::::::I'm not sure why but something about the word mythic is off-putting. I understand that you're referring to the incorporation of Jack's story into the religious lore of The Rapture Family, but it also makes it sound like it didn't actually occur, like it was all just a legend. We hear the gossip of the trio in the AE who represent the general Splicer population (also, the Brutes), but the over-glorified version of Jack's visit might've just been restricted to Siren Alley. Would we all just be fine with this: ::::::"Independently of his own story, Jack's influence over Rapture eventually faded to mere rumors. Tenenbaum had left for the surface with many of the rescued Little Sisters." ::::::Unownshipper (talk) 01:19, March 27, 2015 (UTC) ::::::Still in the bad ending, how many Little Sisters could Tenenbaum have saved? 7 at least? (those from her sanctuary) Doesn't sound like many. /: Pauolo (talk) 07:58, March 27, 2015 (UTC) 1960-1967: The Rebirth of Rapture That title really doesnt make sense - Rapture ISNT 'reborn' - it is falling apart. Lamb is murdering people and talking her followers into committing suicide to further her delusion, new children are being enslaved, and many are still trying to escape. Crazy Splicers still walk the halls. Meltzers words say he sees large sections of wreckage... "Rapture's Decline" might be a better title for that time. 13:49, March 24, 2015 (UTC) :It's about time you realize you didn't like this title, I wrote it like three or four years ago. Just to specify, back when I edited that page a lot I was looking for whichever titles related the most to either the games or their marketing, instead of simply using game titles (BioShock being an exception because I still don't know any good one for it. Which means the subject is open for discussion so let's go for it. :Yes, technically Rapture isn't reborn, but then I was thinking more in the way of Lamb's plans, which was to resurrect Rapture's society into something completely different (and mentioned several time throughout the game and its marketing such as "We will be reborn in the cold womb of the ocean"). Since it's a general storyline page, I understand it is biased towards one character's point of view on said story, but then I'm not sure we should also talk about decline when it comes to its people. In a way, Lamb was able to stabilize the city's inhabitants even at the cost of their own free will when Ryan was only counting on his technology to keep them in line and did nothing towards the Splicing issues except exploit them for his own ends. Also "decline" could also be used for the Civil War era. I can suggest Rapture's Metamorphosis to keep in theme with Lamb's plans and be more specific about them, or simply The Aftermath of the War to remain neutral. Honestly I'd like to hear the others' opinion on that. Pauolo (talk) 17:05, March 24, 2015 (UTC) :I only saw it recently. Anyway... :Raptures Decay ? :The philosophy that Rapture was Founded on is now gone. :The place is not being rebuilt in any way (Lamb didn't even have a coat of paint put on her HQ). :Lamb's goals arent for Rapture, she is out to redo all of humanity. Nothing shows she actually has done anything of any kind of advancement or that any of it isnt just her mad delusion. :I hold that the actual content of the game as more important than 'marketing' as defining it all. :Stabilized? They are as crazed as before in BS1 and showing rather abherrant behaviors from normal human behavior (from before when Rapture was built --- not the post ADAM madness) :Ryan didnt rely on technology to keep them 'in line' back in its Golden Age, and Ryan seems to have gotten killed before he had much chance to find a solution to restore his City (and was still fighting Atlas...) and peoples free will (vague to what extent the Pheromone affected or continued to affect the population, other than it seems to have stopped most of the fighting). :The ADAM fueled Civil War was the 'Shock' that disturbed normalcy (the crippling blow) and the decline followed (Ryan was no longer there as a organizing principle for any recovery to what it had been). : :"Metamorphosis" is probably better as Rapture is being warped almost 180 degrees from what it was built to be (the whole collective vs the individual difference in philosophy). Its also less a judgement as 'rebirth' usually has positive connotation (and also as a 'return'), where Metamorphosis is left open as to being good or bad. : 09:52, March 26, 2015 (UTC) ::I'd settle for metamorphosis if that sounds good to you, but then I'd like to see what others have to say about this title and if we should change to "decay" instead. Pauolo (talk) 10:45, March 26, 2015 (UTC) :::How about "Rapture Reawakens?" The Civil war drove Rapture society in a metaphorical "coma" and by the time of Jack's arrival it was dead. Say what you want, Sofia Lamb did bring some semblance of organized society back in her rise to power, so it could fit. :::Unownshipper (talk) 01:33, March 27, 2015 (UTC) ::::I hate to say that, but "Rapture Reawakens" sounds like a bad subtitle for a sequel. :D I get your point though, but plot wise those years are more like a bad dream/nightmare for Rapture, like it never fully awaken from its coma and entered a state much different than its golden age. ("The Rapture dream is over"). Pauolo (talk) 07:31, March 27, 2015 (UTC) Resurrecto! So, what should we ultimately decide for the name of the 1960 to 1967 part? Seems like the problem is unresolved so I'll list what was proposed so far: *"The Rebirth of Rapture" *"Rapture's Decline" *"Rapture's Metamorphosis" *"The Aftermath of the War" (sounds boring as dirt though) *"Rapture Reawakens" Just saying, I keep my choice on "Rapture's Metamorphosis" so unless someone speak against, I'll write it down this weekend on the page. Pauolo (talk) 15:27, April 9, 2015 (UTC) Rapture's Metamorphosis is probably the best fitting 01:43, April 10, 2015 (UTC) Metamorphosis is a fine choice. Unownshipper (talk) 06:42, April 10, 2015 (UTC) :I'm waiting for tomorrow and if no one raises an objection, I will change the page accordingly to our choice. Pauolo (talk) 07:13, April 10, 2015 (UTC)